"See...? The crocodile has..." (Foto de Jaime Carrero/RUMBO)
La única razón por la cual BB King habló conmigo fue porque mencioné a Pappo.
The King iba a tocar en septiembre del 2005 en el Majestic de San Antonio, y ahí aproveché para recordar al Carpo junto con el hombre que, aunque muchos lo nieguen, revivió su carrera.
Pero, meses después, moría Pappo en un trágico accidente de motocicleta. Un año después de aquella primera conversación telefónica, en el aire me había quedado el genuino afecto hacia Pappo por parte de BB King, y las ganas de volver a hablar con él -esta vez, en persona- sobre el mejor blusero de la historia del rock en español.
Pero ésta es la primera.
(Sudden realization: why the fuck did I write this in Spanish? Sorry, guys. On second thought... Fucking learn Spanish! If you're bilingual, you can be twice as miserable)
Remember Pappo?
Yes, I know Pappo. He came to my hotel when I first got to Argentina. He showed up with a bottle of wine and a big cheese.
A big cheese?
Yeah, a big cheese. A huge round cheese. Ever since, I remembered him as The Cheeseman. Pappo is The Cheeseman.
Was the cheese any good?
Are you kidding? Excellent! Both the cheese and the wine.
I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but you revived his career.
I didn’t know that. But I know we’re friends and we’ve been friends since I was [in Argentina in 1994].
Years go by, and still there's people who say unless you're black —or, at least Anglo— you can't play the blues. Once and for all: Can white Latinos play the blues?
Pappo is a good guitarist, a good friend and a great musician. I don’t know where that stuff comes from, but I think in this world anybody can learn anything. Are you Hispanic?
Yeah, whatever that means...
And here you are, speaking in English! If you can speak English... I can’t speak Spanish fluently, I only know just a few words. But that’s the proof: if you can speak in English and I can know a few words in Spanish, that means any person can learn whatever he or she wants. That contradicts what those people say, right? I don’t believe [Whites or Latinos can’t play the blues]. Music is for everybody.
You debunked another myth: speed equals greatness... You always stressed precision and good taste over speed.
I’m not very fast. Simply, I do what I do. I don’t try to do what you do or what they do or what anybody else does. I just do what I do and try to do it as good as I possibly can. Stevie Ray Vaughan was very fast, and there are many today —I could mention a lot— that are extremely fast and do their thing very well. Many times I wish I could do what they do. But I must accept the fact that I am me and I can only do what I do. There comes a time when you realize you are you. It doesn’t matter who your idol is. You realize you are at your best when you do what you do best, which is being yourself. That’s my advice to all young musicians.
Without a doubt, you’re the greatest living legend of the blues...
[interrupting] I would say “with doubts,” because I don’t see it that way. [laughs]
Who, then?
There are so many... I’m not a critic. I couldn’t tell you who it is. Except for this: I believe Eric Clapton is the number one rock and roll guitarist, and he plays the blues better than many of us.
Even yourself?
Yes. But there are so many guitarists... And so many styles, like flamenco. Most Spaniards and Hispanics are leaders of flamenco and other guitar styles. I have a friend in Spain, I can’t remember his name right now...
Raimundo Amador?
Yes! Yes! He’s fantastic. What I mean to say is: besides the blues, there are a lot of people in other styles that are exceptional. There was a Spaniard called Andrés Segovia [1893-1987]. To me, he’s the father of guitar. Nobody is better than him. And within the blues tradition, in my opinion nobody is better than Muddy Waters and others on that level. A lot of people think Robert Johnson was the best. I don’t argue with them, but I don’t agree. I think [Alfonzo] “Lonnie” Johnson [1899-1970] was the best blues guitarist in history. That’s my opinion. But when people say Whites, Hispanics or people from other countries can’t play the blues, that’s a myth. It’s not true.
Can you tell and identify the love showered upon by different cultures? Can you tell the differences? Or is it always the same?
Of course it’s different: they speak in different languages. Every person who speaks that language understands that language better than others. That’s understandable. The international crowds are all different because the people is different. However, as I said before, music is for everyone. I can sit and listen to Hispanics or the Japanese play, and whoever plays good will satisfy my ear. Maybe I won’t understand the language, but music speaks for itself. Do you know what I was told? “Music itself is a universal language everyone understands, because it speaks to each one of us individually.” I believe that.
At Ray Charles’ funeral, you were one of the most emotional...
Ray, to me, was one of the greatest musicians I met. And he was a great friend. We recorded together and I think we both started around the same time. I started ’49, playing and as a deejay at a radio station. And Ray started around that time. He was younger, I think he was 73 when he died [he would’ve been 74 the day before this interview]. By the way, today’s my birthday, 79...
Happy Birthday!!
Thanks...
I knew it was in September, but I didn’t know the exact date...
[laughs] Today! September 16. Seventy-nine...
Seventy nine young years... [as you can see, I always know what to say...]
I don’t care about the “young” part. [laughs] You know something? When you have a life as mine, you know it took time to get here and you know that you’ve survived. You reach a point in which you don’t care about age too much and you thank God for allowing you to be here for so long.
Let’s get back to Ray Charles. Did you ever forgive Elvis Costello?
I never knew what he said.
Ok, then let’s move on.
No! I want you to tell me!
Many years ago, after a few drinks, in order to upset someone that was arguing with him he said Ray Charles was “an ignorant nigger.” It was a big scandal...
Ignorant nigger?? [big laugh]
He later apologized... and you didn’t hear it from me! It surprises me that you didn't know.
You know... When people are high they can say many things [he looks at me like he somehow knows I can understand the concept], because in those moments one doesn't know and he doesn't even care what the devil he's talking about. But I don't think [Costello] had really said that. Ray was a college graduate. He wasn't stupid.
Anything else you want to add?
Muchas gracias. And it's an honor to be in Texas, a musically self-sufficient state that doesn't need anyone to come and teach anything.
Un año después, habíamos quedado en hablar en el autobús personal de King. El personal, y I mean it: su banda viaja separada en otro autobús exactamente igual, una onda Star Treck (ay, los uruguayos siempre exageramos, pero you get the idea).
Llega la banda y al rato llega BB King. Del autobús sale Willie, su hijo y manager. Me mira, sonríe, me señala y dice "Enrique? Let's go. Mr. King is waiting for you", mientras mi fotógrafo no sabía si seguirme o buscar el baño más cercano.
BB King está sentado frente a su computadora, leyendo muy detenidamente una página sobre "Noisy Reptiles", o algo así. Cuando nos mira, nos sonríe, saluda muy dulce y respetuosamente a mi esposa y nos sentamos a hablar.
"Naaaa... Don't worry about that", me dice, cuando "lamento" el hecho de que tengamos tan poco tiempo y aclaro que "trataré de ser breve", hint, hint...
When did you find out about Pappo’s death?
Much later, maybe a week later after it happened. Some friends told me. They later sent me the papers, and described to me in English what the papers said.
You can get all romantic and say "he died on his own terms," or you can get practical and say "it was a terrible accident," or you can say that he blew it because you don't drink and drive. Who knows...?
You just said it: Who knows? You answered your own question: Who knows? I don’t. I wasn’t there. All I know is what friends tell me.
How did you react when you found out?
I’m not gonna talk too much about it because he was a friend. Just like my son, who is dying from cancer. I can say ‘Yes, he’s dying from cancer. He’s got less than two years to live,” but I won’t talk about it. Pappo was a good friend, that’s... A good friend, you miss. But I’m a believer in God. I believe that God takes us away when he’s ready. And regardless of what man is trying to do, when God is ready, I believe, he takes us away. Who am I to be critical of Pappo or anybody else? I’m just a person. And I think that whatever Pappo was doing I’m sure he must have enjoyed it. And if he was happy, I’m happy for him. Even though sometimes we may or may not do things that others think we should or shouldn’t do. But if one does something for oneself, without trying to hurt anybody else, I’m with him. One hundred percent. Because every man has to live his own life. And each woman has to live her own life. What are we? Who are we? We’re not God. We can’t tell what they should do. People are critics, I’m not.
In musical terms, how can you describe Pappo’s skills as a guitarist?
I couldn’t, he’s just himself. Like I am. I’m myself. You describe it, she describes it, they describe it, but I’m BB King and I play BB King. That’s the way Pappo was. To me, at least.
Do you miss him?
Yeah, he was a friend, he was amigo. He was a good friend.
You recently turned 80...
Yes!
(alguien le pregunta “What is the formula?”)
For what? This is the only time I’ve been 80 (se ríe a carcajadas). Well, for one thing, I don’t drink. Only this (levanta una lata de Diet Coke) and water. I don’t smoke and I’m a diabetic so I try to keep it under control. The doctor gave me my medicine and I’m trying to follow. I rest. Like I’m playing a concert tonight and then I go home and I rest. That’s all.
You’re doing a lot more talking in your concerts, these days...
I don’t think of it. I don’t try to measure it. I do what I feel. If I feel like talking, I talk. Sometimes I don’t feel like talking and I don’t. You understand? Excuse me, may I offer you something?
I'm fine, thanks.
At least, take this. (he hands me a guitar pick with his printed signature on it)...
Thanks... (actually, it was more like ... "OH MY GOD, THANKS A LOT," but this is a serious blog) Now, with this Katrina thing, I can’t help but ask you about your many shows there...
I was there maaaaaany times... But it didn’t only happened in Louisiana. It also happened in Mississippi, where I’m born.
And nobody talks about it.
I know, but I do.
Why is that?
I don’t know, you’ll have to ask. (señala al cielo, como refiriéndose a Dios o a Dios/Bush) I don’t know why everything was destroyed. The Supreme Spirit? Simply, nobody talks about [Mississippi] just like nobody talks about New Orleans.
I don’t want to get you talking about politics, but...
I’m not a politician. If you ask me politics I won’t answer because I don’t know politics. I’m a guitar player. At least, I’m trying to play.
How’s Lucille?
Fine, very good. I got a new one. They made a new one for me for my 80th birthday. And tonight I’m going to play her. You have to look at it closely, because it’s just a little bit different from the other one. I say that Lucille got a facelift.
What’s that on your screen (he’s online, reading about “Noisy reptiles”)?
I like life. And anything I don’t know much about I try to find out. I didn’t finish high school, only finished 10th grade. So there’s a lot I don’t know. But the years have been wonderful for me, because it has given me a chance to learn a lot of things I wouldn’t have known. Things like the computer and software. For example, an elephant: I learned that an elephant has 100 gallons of blood. One hundred gallons. I learned that they have passed thru many, many things, even from the Ice Age and way back. I learned that they walk like a professional dancer, on their toes. Then the foot goes out like that. Now I learned something else and I’m gonna ask you a quiz on it. You know the difference between an alligator and a crocodile? (Se ríe a carcajadas de mi ignorancia y empieza a describir las similitudes en el sistema pulmonar de ambos animales). But there is one distinctive feature.
I’m clueless...
The length of the head and the teeth. (demuestra abriendo y cerrando las manos como si los dedos fueran los dientes. Se ríe a carcajadas como un niño y repite una y otra vez, orgulloso, “I learned that today”.) I try to learn one new thing everyday. That way I feel it wasn’t a day lost.
Despite of everything, this is a great time to enjoy art, everything is so accessible now...
It’s great to be alive.
Despite of everything...
My mother died one I was nine. I had a very hard time. I had no aunts, no parents to take care of me. And growing up I learned that there are a lot of good things that happen. I learned to think of the good things and not the bad things. So today I have to really go back and think of bad things. Even today, it hasn’t been all so sugar and honey. But the good things overcome the bad things. And makes me feel very happy to be here and talking to you. I’m 80 years old and it is a fact that wisdom does come with age, as you grow old. You know that, you’re married now.
(Porciones de este reportaje fueron primero publicadas en Rumbo/No part of these interviews can be reproduced without written permission by Enrique Lopetegui)
The King iba a tocar en septiembre del 2005 en el Majestic de San Antonio, y ahí aproveché para recordar al Carpo junto con el hombre que, aunque muchos lo nieguen, revivió su carrera.
Pero, meses después, moría Pappo en un trágico accidente de motocicleta. Un año después de aquella primera conversación telefónica, en el aire me había quedado el genuino afecto hacia Pappo por parte de BB King, y las ganas de volver a hablar con él -esta vez, en persona- sobre el mejor blusero de la historia del rock en español.
Pero ésta es la primera.
(Sudden realization: why the fuck did I write this in Spanish? Sorry, guys. On second thought... Fucking learn Spanish! If you're bilingual, you can be twice as miserable)
Remember Pappo?
Yes, I know Pappo. He came to my hotel when I first got to Argentina. He showed up with a bottle of wine and a big cheese.
A big cheese?
Yeah, a big cheese. A huge round cheese. Ever since, I remembered him as The Cheeseman. Pappo is The Cheeseman.
Was the cheese any good?
Are you kidding? Excellent! Both the cheese and the wine.
I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but you revived his career.
I didn’t know that. But I know we’re friends and we’ve been friends since I was [in Argentina in 1994].
Years go by, and still there's people who say unless you're black —or, at least Anglo— you can't play the blues. Once and for all: Can white Latinos play the blues?
Pappo is a good guitarist, a good friend and a great musician. I don’t know where that stuff comes from, but I think in this world anybody can learn anything. Are you Hispanic?
Yeah, whatever that means...
And here you are, speaking in English! If you can speak English... I can’t speak Spanish fluently, I only know just a few words. But that’s the proof: if you can speak in English and I can know a few words in Spanish, that means any person can learn whatever he or she wants. That contradicts what those people say, right? I don’t believe [Whites or Latinos can’t play the blues]. Music is for everybody.
You debunked another myth: speed equals greatness... You always stressed precision and good taste over speed.
I’m not very fast. Simply, I do what I do. I don’t try to do what you do or what they do or what anybody else does. I just do what I do and try to do it as good as I possibly can. Stevie Ray Vaughan was very fast, and there are many today —I could mention a lot— that are extremely fast and do their thing very well. Many times I wish I could do what they do. But I must accept the fact that I am me and I can only do what I do. There comes a time when you realize you are you. It doesn’t matter who your idol is. You realize you are at your best when you do what you do best, which is being yourself. That’s my advice to all young musicians.
Without a doubt, you’re the greatest living legend of the blues...
[interrupting] I would say “with doubts,” because I don’t see it that way. [laughs]
Who, then?
There are so many... I’m not a critic. I couldn’t tell you who it is. Except for this: I believe Eric Clapton is the number one rock and roll guitarist, and he plays the blues better than many of us.
Even yourself?
Yes. But there are so many guitarists... And so many styles, like flamenco. Most Spaniards and Hispanics are leaders of flamenco and other guitar styles. I have a friend in Spain, I can’t remember his name right now...
Raimundo Amador?
Yes! Yes! He’s fantastic. What I mean to say is: besides the blues, there are a lot of people in other styles that are exceptional. There was a Spaniard called Andrés Segovia [1893-1987]. To me, he’s the father of guitar. Nobody is better than him. And within the blues tradition, in my opinion nobody is better than Muddy Waters and others on that level. A lot of people think Robert Johnson was the best. I don’t argue with them, but I don’t agree. I think [Alfonzo] “Lonnie” Johnson [1899-1970] was the best blues guitarist in history. That’s my opinion. But when people say Whites, Hispanics or people from other countries can’t play the blues, that’s a myth. It’s not true.
Can you tell and identify the love showered upon by different cultures? Can you tell the differences? Or is it always the same?
Of course it’s different: they speak in different languages. Every person who speaks that language understands that language better than others. That’s understandable. The international crowds are all different because the people is different. However, as I said before, music is for everyone. I can sit and listen to Hispanics or the Japanese play, and whoever plays good will satisfy my ear. Maybe I won’t understand the language, but music speaks for itself. Do you know what I was told? “Music itself is a universal language everyone understands, because it speaks to each one of us individually.” I believe that.
At Ray Charles’ funeral, you were one of the most emotional...
Ray, to me, was one of the greatest musicians I met. And he was a great friend. We recorded together and I think we both started around the same time. I started ’49, playing and as a deejay at a radio station. And Ray started around that time. He was younger, I think he was 73 when he died [he would’ve been 74 the day before this interview]. By the way, today’s my birthday, 79...
Happy Birthday!!
Thanks...
I knew it was in September, but I didn’t know the exact date...
[laughs] Today! September 16. Seventy-nine...
Seventy nine young years... [as you can see, I always know what to say...]
I don’t care about the “young” part. [laughs] You know something? When you have a life as mine, you know it took time to get here and you know that you’ve survived. You reach a point in which you don’t care about age too much and you thank God for allowing you to be here for so long.
Let’s get back to Ray Charles. Did you ever forgive Elvis Costello?
I never knew what he said.
Ok, then let’s move on.
No! I want you to tell me!
Many years ago, after a few drinks, in order to upset someone that was arguing with him he said Ray Charles was “an ignorant nigger.” It was a big scandal...
Ignorant nigger?? [big laugh]
He later apologized... and you didn’t hear it from me! It surprises me that you didn't know.
You know... When people are high they can say many things [he looks at me like he somehow knows I can understand the concept], because in those moments one doesn't know and he doesn't even care what the devil he's talking about. But I don't think [Costello] had really said that. Ray was a college graduate. He wasn't stupid.
Anything else you want to add?
Muchas gracias. And it's an honor to be in Texas, a musically self-sufficient state that doesn't need anyone to come and teach anything.
Un año después, habíamos quedado en hablar en el autobús personal de King. El personal, y I mean it: su banda viaja separada en otro autobús exactamente igual, una onda Star Treck (ay, los uruguayos siempre exageramos, pero you get the idea).
Llega la banda y al rato llega BB King. Del autobús sale Willie, su hijo y manager. Me mira, sonríe, me señala y dice "Enrique? Let's go. Mr. King is waiting for you", mientras mi fotógrafo no sabía si seguirme o buscar el baño más cercano.
BB King está sentado frente a su computadora, leyendo muy detenidamente una página sobre "Noisy Reptiles", o algo así. Cuando nos mira, nos sonríe, saluda muy dulce y respetuosamente a mi esposa y nos sentamos a hablar.
"Naaaa... Don't worry about that", me dice, cuando "lamento" el hecho de que tengamos tan poco tiempo y aclaro que "trataré de ser breve", hint, hint...
When did you find out about Pappo’s death?
Much later, maybe a week later after it happened. Some friends told me. They later sent me the papers, and described to me in English what the papers said.
You can get all romantic and say "he died on his own terms," or you can get practical and say "it was a terrible accident," or you can say that he blew it because you don't drink and drive. Who knows...?
You just said it: Who knows? You answered your own question: Who knows? I don’t. I wasn’t there. All I know is what friends tell me.
How did you react when you found out?
I’m not gonna talk too much about it because he was a friend. Just like my son, who is dying from cancer. I can say ‘Yes, he’s dying from cancer. He’s got less than two years to live,” but I won’t talk about it. Pappo was a good friend, that’s... A good friend, you miss. But I’m a believer in God. I believe that God takes us away when he’s ready. And regardless of what man is trying to do, when God is ready, I believe, he takes us away. Who am I to be critical of Pappo or anybody else? I’m just a person. And I think that whatever Pappo was doing I’m sure he must have enjoyed it. And if he was happy, I’m happy for him. Even though sometimes we may or may not do things that others think we should or shouldn’t do. But if one does something for oneself, without trying to hurt anybody else, I’m with him. One hundred percent. Because every man has to live his own life. And each woman has to live her own life. What are we? Who are we? We’re not God. We can’t tell what they should do. People are critics, I’m not.
In musical terms, how can you describe Pappo’s skills as a guitarist?
I couldn’t, he’s just himself. Like I am. I’m myself. You describe it, she describes it, they describe it, but I’m BB King and I play BB King. That’s the way Pappo was. To me, at least.
Do you miss him?
Yeah, he was a friend, he was amigo. He was a good friend.
You recently turned 80...
Yes!
(alguien le pregunta “What is the formula?”)
For what? This is the only time I’ve been 80 (se ríe a carcajadas). Well, for one thing, I don’t drink. Only this (levanta una lata de Diet Coke) and water. I don’t smoke and I’m a diabetic so I try to keep it under control. The doctor gave me my medicine and I’m trying to follow. I rest. Like I’m playing a concert tonight and then I go home and I rest. That’s all.
You’re doing a lot more talking in your concerts, these days...
I don’t think of it. I don’t try to measure it. I do what I feel. If I feel like talking, I talk. Sometimes I don’t feel like talking and I don’t. You understand? Excuse me, may I offer you something?
I'm fine, thanks.
At least, take this. (he hands me a guitar pick with his printed signature on it)...
Thanks... (actually, it was more like ... "OH MY GOD, THANKS A LOT," but this is a serious blog) Now, with this Katrina thing, I can’t help but ask you about your many shows there...
I was there maaaaaany times... But it didn’t only happened in Louisiana. It also happened in Mississippi, where I’m born.
And nobody talks about it.
I know, but I do.
Why is that?
I don’t know, you’ll have to ask. (señala al cielo, como refiriéndose a Dios o a Dios/Bush) I don’t know why everything was destroyed. The Supreme Spirit? Simply, nobody talks about [Mississippi] just like nobody talks about New Orleans.
I don’t want to get you talking about politics, but...
I’m not a politician. If you ask me politics I won’t answer because I don’t know politics. I’m a guitar player. At least, I’m trying to play.
How’s Lucille?
Fine, very good. I got a new one. They made a new one for me for my 80th birthday. And tonight I’m going to play her. You have to look at it closely, because it’s just a little bit different from the other one. I say that Lucille got a facelift.
What’s that on your screen (he’s online, reading about “Noisy reptiles”)?
I like life. And anything I don’t know much about I try to find out. I didn’t finish high school, only finished 10th grade. So there’s a lot I don’t know. But the years have been wonderful for me, because it has given me a chance to learn a lot of things I wouldn’t have known. Things like the computer and software. For example, an elephant: I learned that an elephant has 100 gallons of blood. One hundred gallons. I learned that they have passed thru many, many things, even from the Ice Age and way back. I learned that they walk like a professional dancer, on their toes. Then the foot goes out like that. Now I learned something else and I’m gonna ask you a quiz on it. You know the difference between an alligator and a crocodile? (Se ríe a carcajadas de mi ignorancia y empieza a describir las similitudes en el sistema pulmonar de ambos animales). But there is one distinctive feature.
I’m clueless...
The length of the head and the teeth. (demuestra abriendo y cerrando las manos como si los dedos fueran los dientes. Se ríe a carcajadas como un niño y repite una y otra vez, orgulloso, “I learned that today”.) I try to learn one new thing everyday. That way I feel it wasn’t a day lost.
Despite of everything, this is a great time to enjoy art, everything is so accessible now...
It’s great to be alive.
Despite of everything...
My mother died one I was nine. I had a very hard time. I had no aunts, no parents to take care of me. And growing up I learned that there are a lot of good things that happen. I learned to think of the good things and not the bad things. So today I have to really go back and think of bad things. Even today, it hasn’t been all so sugar and honey. But the good things overcome the bad things. And makes me feel very happy to be here and talking to you. I’m 80 years old and it is a fact that wisdom does come with age, as you grow old. You know that, you’re married now.
(Porciones de este reportaje fueron primero publicadas en Rumbo/No part of these interviews can be reproduced without written permission by Enrique Lopetegui)
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